Gay's raising kids is child abuse

[Albee Kuminova]

http://news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=85798


Growing up with gay parents will leave children inadequate

August 28, 2004

I believe that if children are brought up in gay homes, it will leave
the children confused and scared. Also, with male homosexual parents, it
will give male children a false sense of what a man is supposed to be.

I believe that homosexuals are a spirit and if children are brought up
around that spirit, it will rub off on them. I feel that there are
already many problems children have to face in the world and allowing
them to be brought up in a homosexual house is another problem that we
are adding to.

Children have no voice — no opinion to what, where and how they want to
be raised. As a man and a father, I feel it is my obligation to voice my
feelings and opinion on this subject.

I strongly feel that children need a stable and secure foundation to be
raised on, and living in a house with gay parents just won’t help them
become all they should be when they become adults.

— Ivan McCrae, Keizer


The above letter writer to the editor of the Salem Statesman Journal has
an interesting opinion. It's not too far of a jump to conclude that
adoption by same sex couples or kids being raised by same sex couples is
a child abuse.

I am sure the politically correct liberal will attack me for posting
this. But I maintain that it is child abuse. Pure and simple. The letter
writer is on target.

[Dave Thompson]

Post by Albee Kuminova
http://news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=85798
Growing up with gay parents will leave children inadequate
August 28, 2004
I believe that if children are brought up in gay homes, it will leave
the children confused and scared. Also, with male homosexual parents, it
will give male children a false sense of what a man is supposed to be.
I believe that homosexuals are a spirit

Homosexuals are a spirit? What the hell are you babbling about?

and if children are brought up

Post by Albee Kuminova
around that spirit, it will rub off on them. I feel that there are
already many problems children have to face in the world and allowing
them to be brought up in a homosexual house is another problem that we
are adding to.
Children have no voice - no opinion to what, where and how they want to
be raised. As a man and a father, I feel it is my obligation to voice my
feelings and opinion on this subject.
I strongly feel that children need a stable and secure foundation to be
raised on, and living in a house with gay parents just won't help them
become all they should be when they become adults.

Then explain how heterosexual parents produce homosexual children in a
stable environment.

I'm not interested on how you feel, I want references.

[cor]

"I strongly feel that children need a stable and secure foundation to be
raised on"

Then lets start with health insurance for kids.
Divorce of heterosexuals is more harmful for kids than living
with homosexual parents.

Post by Albee Kuminova
http://news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=85798
Growing up with gay parents will leave children inadequate
August 28, 2004
I believe that if children are brought up in gay homes, it will leave
the children confused and scared. Also, with male homosexual parents, it
will give male children a false sense of what a man is supposed to be.
I believe that homosexuals are a spirit and if children are brought up
around that spirit, it will rub off on them. I feel that there are
already many problems children have to face in the world and allowing
them to be brought up in a homosexual house is another problem that we
are adding to.
Children have no voice — no opinion to what, where and how they want to
be raised. As a man and a father, I feel it is my obligation to voice my
feelings and opinion on this subject.
I strongly feel that children need a stable and secure foundation to be
raised on, and living in a house with gay parents just won’t help them
become all they should be when they become adults.
— Ivan McCrae, Keizer
The above letter writer to the editor of the Salem Statesman Journal has
an interesting opinion. It's not too far of a jump to conclude that
adoption by same sex couples or kids being raised by same sex couples is
a child abuse.
I am sure the politically correct liberal will attack me for posting
this. But I maintain that it is child abuse. Pure and simple. The letter
writer is on target.

[Stan]

<***@exchangenet.net> wrote:

}"I strongly feel that children need a stable and secure foundation to be
} raised on"
}
}Then lets start with health insurance for kids.

Not gonna happen...when it comes to funding, Republicans believe that
life begins with conception and ends at birth.

Stan.

[Scratch]

Post by Albee Kuminova
http://news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=85798
Growing up with gay parents will leave children inadequate
August 28, 2004
I believe that if children are brought up in gay homes, it will leave
the children confused and scared. Also, with male homosexual parents, it
will give male children a false sense of what a man is supposed to be.
I believe that homosexuals are a spirit and if children are brought up
around that spirit, it will rub off on them. I feel that there are
already many problems children have to face in the world and allowing
them to be brought up in a homosexual house is another problem that we
are adding to.
Children have no voice - no opinion to what, where and how they want to
be raised. As a man and a father, I feel it is my obligation to voice my
feelings and opinion on this subject.
I strongly feel that children need a stable and secure foundation to be
raised on, and living in a house with gay parents just won't help them
become all they should be when they become adults.
- Ivan McCrae, Keizer
The above letter writer to the editor of the Salem Statesman Journal has
an interesting opinion. It's not too far of a jump to conclude that
adoption by same sex couples or kids being raised by same sex couples is
a child abuse.
I am sure the politically correct liberal will attack me for posting
this. But I maintain that it is child abuse. Pure and simple. The letter
writer is on target.

Only those with NO moral compass will feel differently. Sad part is they do
not even think like a normal person but we are suppose to accept their
perversion as if they were. To Bad, To Sad :(

Kids are always the first casualty in a war.

[cor]

Post by Scratch

Post by Albee Kuminova
http://news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=85798
Growing up with gay parents will leave children inadequate

...

Post by Scratch

Post by Albee Kuminova
I am sure the politically correct liberal will attack me for posting
this. But I maintain that it is child abuse. Pure and simple. The letter
writer is on target.

Only those with NO moral compass will feel differently. Sad part is they do
not even think like a normal person but we are suppose to accept their
perversion as if they were. To Bad, To Sad :(
Kids are always the first casualty in a war.

Moral compass, my ass!
What moral compass? Newt's?

[Daniel Bendiksen]

I'm so very sorry you feel this way...

I do thank you for posting this, as it is defiantly a "call to action" for
people on both sides of the issue.

People who agree with this should write to the editor of Statesman Journal.

People who disagree with this should write to the editor of the Statesman
Journal.

In your letter to them, please do be concise, exacting and detailed. Just
wildly writing out your emotional response isn't going to sway many (if
any) people, so do site studies, facts and personal experience.

For those who agree:
You might look for things that show how terrible children of homosexuals
turn out. I'd also suggest looking for things that show how kids of
homosexuals are worse off than kids of straight parents (please don't point
out the "injustice" of the legal system where homosexuals can't be married
in the eyes of the govn't, can't be listed with medical authority, etc,
these points will only show that the system is biased against homosexuals,
which is not your point here).

For those who disagree:
You might look for things that show how terrible kids of perfect parents
can be, how well adjusted kids of homosexuals have been, point out "which
is worse" cases like "with homosexual parents" vs "with a drunk abusive
parent", or "with homosexual parents" vs "with parents who abused their
kids sexually".

Ok, nuff said. I'll respond to the article below...

Post by Albee Kuminova
http://news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=85798
Growing up with gay parents will leave children inadequate
August 28, 2004
I believe that if children are brought up in gay homes, it will leave
the children confused and scared. Also, with male homosexual parents, it
will give male children a false sense of what a man is supposed to be.

You believe? Could you please dig up a couple findings or personal examples
you've observed? (I know there's a lot of these around, so it shouldn't be
to difficult)

Post by Albee Kuminova
I believe that homosexuals are a spirit and if children are brought up
around that spirit, it will rub off on them. I feel that there are
already many problems children have to face in the world and allowing
them to be brought up in a homosexual house is another problem that we
are adding to.

A spirit? I'm not sure I understand you here... Are you trying to say that
God made them that way? Yet, you say they can "rub off" on the kids, so
that makes it sound like something infectious... Which is it? Disease or
divine intent?

Post by Albee Kuminova
Children have no voice — no opinion to what, where and how they want to
be raised. As a man and a father, I feel it is my obligation to voice my
feelings and opinion on this subject.

Feelings & opinions are a great start. Please do follow up with facts, case
studies & examples.

Post by Albee Kuminova
I strongly feel that children need a stable and secure foundation to be
raised on, and living in a house with gay parents just won’t help them
become all they should be when they become adults.

I agree that kids need a stable environment to grow up in. I don't agree
that straight parents provide that by default. I personally know of
examples of sexual abuse by straight parents, physical abuse by drunk/high
parents and mental abuse by parents who had low self-esteem.

I think what kids really need is a stable, loving & supportative
environment to grow up in. Then they will be empowered to do as they wish.

Post by Albee Kuminova
— Ivan McCrae, Keizer

Thank you for writing, Ivan.

Post by Albee Kuminova
The above letter writer to the editor of the Salem Statesman Journal has
an interesting opinion. It's not too far of a jump to conclude that
adoption by same sex couples or kids being raised by same sex couples is
a child abuse.
I am sure the politically correct liberal will attack me for posting
this. But I maintain that it is child abuse. Pure and simple. The letter
writer is on target.

Until you can address the gross deficiencies of the writing of the above
letter, I feel no need to address you directly except in the context of
saying "come up with facts and figures, then we'll talk lucidly about
this".

[Albee Kuminova]

Post by Daniel Bendiksen
I'm so very sorry you feel this way...
I do thank you for posting this, as it is defiantly a "call to action" for
people on both sides of the issue.
People who agree with this should write to the editor of Statesman Journal.
People who disagree with this should write to the editor of the Statesman
Journal.
In your letter to them, please do be concise, exacting and detailed. Just
wildly writing out your emotional response isn't going to sway many (if
any) people, so do site studies, facts and personal experience.
You might look for things that show how terrible children of homosexuals
turn out. I'd also suggest looking for things that show how kids of
homosexuals are worse off than kids of straight parents (please don't point
out the "injustice" of the legal system where homosexuals can't be married
in the eyes of the govn't, can't be listed with medical authority, etc,
these points will only show that the system is biased against homosexuals,
which is not your point here).
You might look for things that show how terrible kids of perfect parents
can be, how well adjusted kids of homosexuals have been, point out "which
is worse" cases like "with homosexual parents" vs "with a drunk abusive
parent", or "with homosexual parents" vs "with parents who abused their

IMO, we need to see the big picture. It's not an either or situation.
Heterosexual parents can also be guilty of child
abuse...............drunkeness..........fights which include yelling and
screaming and slamming doors.............spousal abuse.........child
sexual molestation, etc. Lets's not forget this. Heterosexual parents
can conduct themselves in a manner which is child abuse or borders on
it. But reasonable people know it's rough to grow up. And kids need good
roll models which means a mom and a dad. Single mom families are also
harmful to kids. IOW, there are many "family" situations which can
injure kids for life. IMO having two gay or lesbian parents is just one
situation. That's not to say homosexuals can't be good, honest, caring
or loving people just like an alcoholic can be a good, honest, caring,
person and feel love for a child. But that situation injures the child
also. This isn't about gays and lesbians. It's about the children and
what kind of family is healthiest for them. In my life I have known and
worked with gays. Also I've known and worked with alcoholics. it doesn't
matter which situation is most harmful to kids. What matters is both and
other family situations are harmful to kids. In fact, in some rare
cases, it might make sense for gays to be adoptive parents of
handicapped or developmentally kids who would other wise go unadopted.
Doors should never be closed and locked to that extent. Few things in
life are either this or that.

Post by Daniel Bendiksen
kids sexually".
Ok, nuff said. I'll respond to the article below...

Post by Albee Kuminova
http://news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=85798
Growing up with gay parents will leave children inadequate
August 28, 2004
I believe that if children are brought up in gay homes, it will leave
the children confused and scared. Also, with male homosexual parents, it
will give male children a false sense of what a man is supposed to be.

You believe? Could you please dig up a couple findings or personal examples
you've observed? (I know there's a lot of these around, so it shouldn't be
to difficult)

Post by Albee Kuminova
I believe that homosexuals are a spirit and if children are brought up
around that spirit, it will rub off on them. I feel that there are
already many problems children have to face in the world and allowing
them to be brought up in a homosexual house is another problem that we
are adding to.

A spirit? I'm not sure I understand you here... Are you trying to say that
God made them that way? Yet, you say they can "rub off" on the kids, so
that makes it sound like something infectious... Which is it? Disease or
divine intent?

Post by Albee Kuminova
Children have no voice — no opinion to what, where and how they want to
be raised. As a man and a father, I feel it is my obligation to voice my
feelings and opinion on this subject.

Feelings & opinions are a great start. Please do follow up with facts, case
studies & examples.

Post by Albee Kuminova
I strongly feel that children need a stable and secure foundation to be
raised on, and living in a house with gay parents just won’t help them
become all they should be when they become adults.

I agree that kids need a stable environment to grow up in. I don't agree
that straight parents provide that by default. I personally know of
examples of sexual abuse by straight parents, physical abuse by drunk/high
parents and mental abuse by parents who had low self-esteem.
I think what kids really need is a stable, loving & supportative
environment to grow up in. Then they will be empowered to do as they wish.

Post by Albee Kuminova
— Ivan McCrae, Keizer

Thank you for writing, Ivan.

Post by Albee Kuminova
The above letter writer to the editor of the Salem Statesman Journal has
an interesting opinion. It's not too far of a jump to conclude that
adoption by same sex couples or kids being raised by same sex couples is
a child abuse.
I am sure the politically correct liberal will attack me for posting
this. But I maintain that it is child abuse. Pure and simple. The letter
writer is on target.

Until you can address the gross deficiencies of the writing of the above
letter, I feel no need to address you directly except in the context of
saying "come up with facts and figures, then we'll talk lucidly about
this".

[cor]

Albee Kuminova wrote:
...

Post by Albee Kuminova
Single mom families are also
harmful to kids. IOW, there are many "family" situations which can
injure kids for life. IMO having two gay or lesbian parents is just one
situation.

Any study to back you up?

Post by Albee Kuminova
That's not to say homosexuals can't be good, honest, caring
or loving people just like an alcoholic can be a good, honest, caring,
person and feel love for a child. But that situation injures the child
also.

How does the child get harmed. Explain

....

[Albee Kuminova]

Post by cor
...

Post by Albee Kuminova
Single mom families are also
harmful to kids. IOW, there are many "family" situations which can
injure kids for life. IMO having two gay or lesbian parents is just one
situation.

Any study to back you up?

Many. Do a Google search if you are interested.

Post by cor

Post by Albee Kuminova
That's not to say homosexuals can't be good, honest, caring
or loving people just like an alcoholic can be a good, honest, caring,
person and feel love for a child. But that situation injures the child
also.

How does the child get harmed. Explain
....

It's elementary. The child is denied a mother and a father as role
models.

[Dave Thompson]

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by cor
...

Post by Albee Kuminova
Single mom families are also
harmful to kids. IOW, there are many "family" situations which can
injure kids for life. IMO having two gay or lesbian parents is just one
situation.

Any study to back you up?

Many. Do a Google search if you are interested.

Meaning you have none.

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by cor

Post by Albee Kuminova
That's not to say homosexuals can't be good, honest, caring
or loving people just like an alcoholic can be a good, honest, caring,
person and feel love for a child. But that situation injures the child
also.

How does the child get harmed. Explain
....

It's elementary. The child is denied a mother and a father as role
models.

So why not just arrest all single parents and lock them away. According to
you they are just as bad as those horrible sodomists.

[Albee Kuminova]

Post by Dave Thompson

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by cor
...

Post by Albee Kuminova
Single mom families are also
harmful to kids. IOW, there are many "family" situations which can
injure kids for life. IMO having two gay or lesbian parents is just one
situation.

Any study to back you up?

Many. Do a Google search if you are interested.

Meaning you have none.

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by cor

Post by Albee Kuminova
That's not to say homosexuals can't be good, honest, caring
or loving people just like an alcoholic can be a good, honest, caring,
person and feel love for a child. But that situation injures the child
also.

How does the child get harmed. Explain
....

It's elementary. The child is denied a mother and a father as role
models.

So why not just arrest all single parents and lock them away. According to
you they are just as bad as those horrible sodomists.

Oh, man! What ARE you smokin'?!!! You'd arrest a mom cause dad takes
off? My point is the child suffers in either case. Just as bad? Who
knows? But either is bad for the kid. A child needs a mom and a dad who
are GOOD parents. It's not about what's worst. It's about what's best.
Capish?

[Dave Thompson]

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by Dave Thompson

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by cor
...

Post by Albee Kuminova
Single mom families are also
harmful to kids. IOW, there are many "family" situations which can
injure kids for life. IMO having two gay or lesbian parents is just one
situation.

Any study to back you up?

Many. Do a Google search if you are interested.

Meaning you have none.

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by cor

Post by Albee Kuminova
That's not to say homosexuals can't be good, honest, caring
or loving people just like an alcoholic can be a good, honest, caring,
person and feel love for a child. But that situation injures the child
also.

How does the child get harmed. Explain
....

It's elementary. The child is denied a mother and a father as role
models.

So why not just arrest all single parents and lock them away. According to
you they are just as bad as those horrible sodomists.

Oh, man! What ARE you smokin'?!!! You'd arrest a mom cause dad takes
off? My point is the child suffers in either case. Just as bad? Who
knows? But either is bad for the kid. A child needs a mom and a dad who
are GOOD parents. It's not about what's worst. It's about what's best.
Capish?

You seem to not understand the concept "guilty before proven innocent". You
immediately assume that gays are going to abuse their adopted children with
no evidence what so ever. That is sick, buddy, just fucking sick. Have you
ever read the constitution? It's holier than thou self righteous idiots like
yourself that want restrict or punish entire categories of people because
they don't meet with your own ill-informed ignorant approval. Why don't you
just get off the gay trip, Albee? It's more than obvious that you are
completely hung up on them beyond what is normal or healthy.

[Albee Kuminova]

Post by Dave Thompson

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by Dave Thompson

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by cor
...

Post by Albee Kuminova
Single mom families are also
harmful to kids. IOW, there are many "family" situations which can
injure kids for life. IMO having two gay or lesbian parents is just one
situation.

Any study to back you up?

Many. Do a Google search if you are interested.

Meaning you have none.

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by cor

Post by Albee Kuminova
That's not to say homosexuals can't be good, honest, caring
or loving people just like an alcoholic can be a good, honest, caring,
person and feel love for a child. But that situation injures the child
also.

How does the child get harmed. Explain
....

It's elementary. The child is denied a mother and a father as role
models.

So why not just arrest all single parents and lock them away. According to
you they are just as bad as those horrible sodomists.

Oh, man! What ARE you smokin'?!!! You'd arrest a mom cause dad takes
off? My point is the child suffers in either case. Just as bad? Who
knows? But either is bad for the kid. A child needs a mom and a dad who
are GOOD parents. It's not about what's worst. It's about what's best.
Capish?

You seem to not understand the concept "guilty before proven innocent". You
immediately assume that gays are going to abuse their adopted children with
no evidence what so ever.

I maintain it is a prima facie fact that children raised by any same
seme sex couple is deleterious to the child's mental heath.





That is sick, buddy, just fucking sick. Have you

Post by Dave Thompson
ever read the constitution? It's holier than thou self righteous idiots like
yourself that want restrict or punish entire categories of people because
they don't meet with your own ill-informed ignorant approval. Why don't you
just get off the gay trip, Albee? It's more than obvious that you are
completely hung up on them beyond what is normal or healthy.

You know, Dave, I saw a tv commercial for some diet plan that says
weighing yourself every day will drive you crazy. I think that you
should hide your scales. Normal and healthy?!!! Exactly my point.

[Dave Thompson]

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by Dave Thompson

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by Dave Thompson

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by cor
...

Post by Albee Kuminova
Single mom families are also
harmful to kids. IOW, there are many "family" situations which can
injure kids for life. IMO having two gay or lesbian parents is
just
one
situation.

Any study to back you up?

Many. Do a Google search if you are interested.

Meaning you have none.

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by cor

Post by Albee Kuminova
That's not to say homosexuals can't be good, honest, caring
or loving people just like an alcoholic can be a good, honest, caring,
person and feel love for a child. But that situation injures the child
also.

How does the child get harmed. Explain
....

It's elementary. The child is denied a mother and a father as role
models.

So why not just arrest all single parents and lock them away.
According
to
you they are just as bad as those horrible sodomists.

Oh, man! What ARE you smokin'?!!! You'd arrest a mom cause dad takes
off? My point is the child suffers in either case. Just as bad? Who
knows? But either is bad for the kid. A child needs a mom and a dad who
are GOOD parents. It's not about what's worst. It's about what's best.
Capish?

You seem to not understand the concept "guilty before proven innocent". You
immediately assume that gays are going to abuse their adopted children with
no evidence what so ever.

I maintain it is a prima facie fact that children raised by any same
seme sex couple is deleterious to the child's mental heath.

That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.

I am reminded that you consider you religious beliefs to be prima facie as
well.

Post by Albee Kuminova
That is sick, buddy, just fucking sick. Have you

Post by Dave Thompson
ever read the constitution? It's holier than thou self righteous idiots like
yourself that want restrict or punish entire categories of people because
they don't meet with your own ill-informed ignorant approval. Why don't you
just get off the gay trip, Albee? It's more than obvious that you are
completely hung up on them beyond what is normal or healthy.

You know, Dave, I saw a tv commercial for some diet plan that says
weighing yourself every day will drive you crazy. I think that you
should hide your scales. Normal and healthy?!!! Exactly my point.

You're all hat and no cattle, Albee. You make these grand claims and then
spend the rest of the thread revealing you have nothing but an ignorant and
bigoted opinion backing you up. Your obsession with homosexuals is sicker
than you think their sexual preferences are and flip answers won't change
it.

[Timothy Travis]

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:17:56 -0700, "Dave Thompson"

Post by Dave Thompson
You seem to not understand the concept "guilty before proven innocent". You
immediately assume that gays are going to abuse their adopted children with
no evidence what so ever. That is sick, buddy, just fucking sick. Have you
ever read the constitution? It's holier than thou self righteous idiots like
yourself that want restrict or punish entire categories of people because
they don't meet with your own ill-informed ignorant approval. Why don't you
just get off the gay trip, Albee? It's more than obvious that you are
completely hung up on them beyond what is normal or healthy.

It would be constructive to find and then cite some evidence about bad
effects of growing up with gay and lesbian parents. Otherwise one is
in danger of having been misled into the prideful striking of a pose
and in order to prove one's own righteousness by opposing a Great
Evil. (as those who pray on street corners).

I know too many people who have reared and been reared by gays and
lesbians, and by single parents who are doing just fine to accept what
Albee writes about children being abused if they don't have a father
and a mother.

Albee believes that it's "best" for kids to have two parents of
different sexes because that is consistent with *his* vision of Gospel
Order. He feels no need to put forth evidence to prove this, because
it just "makes sense" to people who have certain beliefs and who
reason from those untested beliefs rather than from evidence.

This can have bad results--look at where the Germans ended up
reasoning from what "made sense" to them given their racist
assumptions. History, and the contemporary world, is full of this
kind of thing--people advocating what "makes sense" in terms of their
own beliefs about what's real.

There is no problem with this when such reasoning takes them to
purchase this or that kind of car or attend this or that kind of
church. The problem is when, such as here, this kind of reasoning
from untested assumptions threatens harm to other people.

I don't know if it's really true, or not, that kids do "better" when
they have two parents and when these parents are of different sexes,
and neither does Albee. My experience tells me it's not, but
sometimes my experience with things is not representative. I have yet
to see *any* evidence that stands the test of scrutiny for the
proposition that it is damaging *per se* for children to grow up with
either parents of the same sex or only one parent--and I have seen
plenty of evidence that it is not.

So, knowing the "benefits" of the foster care system as I do, I will
opt for leaving children with gay parents and with single parents
until someone can convince me that they are so damaged by this that
growing up with the state of Oregon as a parent, or undergoing the
trauma of separation and attempted reconnection with strangers, is a
lesser evil--if any kind of evil it is.

In fact, for the thousands of children currently awaiting adoptive
placements in Oregon I will continue to believe that allowing gays and
lesbians to adopt children is a good thing that we should encourage
and support. Because we *know* children are better off in safe homes
than they are in foster care. I will believe that gays and lesbians
are entirely capable of providing safe homes until someone can
prove--and not just explain in a way that "makes sense" based on thier
untested beliefs--that being raised by gay and lesbian people damages
them.

Timothy Travis



"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ
Jesus."

Philippians 2:5

[Dave Thompson]

Post by Timothy Travis
On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:17:56 -0700, "Dave Thompson"

Post by Dave Thompson
You seem to not understand the concept "guilty before proven innocent". You
immediately assume that gays are going to abuse their adopted children with
no evidence what so ever. That is sick, buddy, just fucking sick. Have you
ever read the constitution? It's holier than thou self righteous idiots like
yourself that want restrict or punish entire categories of people because
they don't meet with your own ill-informed ignorant approval. Why don't you
just get off the gay trip, Albee? It's more than obvious that you are
completely hung up on them beyond what is normal or healthy.

It would be constructive to find and then cite some evidence about bad
effects of growing up with gay and lesbian parents. Otherwise one is
in danger of having been misled into the prideful striking of a pose
and in order to prove one's own righteousness by opposing a Great
Evil. (as those who pray on street corners).
I know too many people who have reared and been reared by gays and
lesbians, and by single parents who are doing just fine to accept what
Albee writes about children being abused if they don't have a father
and a mother.
Albee believes that it's "best" for kids to have two parents of
different sexes because that is consistent with *his* vision of Gospel
Order. He feels no need to put forth evidence to prove this, because
it just "makes sense" to people who have certain beliefs and who
reason from those untested beliefs rather than from evidence.
This can have bad results--look at where the Germans ended up
reasoning from what "made sense" to them given their racist
assumptions. History, and the contemporary world, is full of this
kind of thing--people advocating what "makes sense" in terms of their
own beliefs about what's real.
There is no problem with this when such reasoning takes them to
purchase this or that kind of car or attend this or that kind of
church. The problem is when, such as here, this kind of reasoning
from untested assumptions threatens harm to other people.
I don't know if it's really true, or not, that kids do "better" when
they have two parents and when these parents are of different sexes,
and neither does Albee. My experience tells me it's not, but
sometimes my experience with things is not representative. I have yet
to see *any* evidence that stands the test of scrutiny for the
proposition that it is damaging *per se* for children to grow up with
either parents of the same sex or only one parent--and I have seen
plenty of evidence that it is not.
So, knowing the "benefits" of the foster care system as I do, I will
opt for leaving children with gay parents and with single parents
until someone can convince me that they are so damaged by this that
growing up with the state of Oregon as a parent, or undergoing the
trauma of separation and attempted reconnection with strangers, is a
lesser evil--if any kind of evil it is.
In fact, for the thousands of children currently awaiting adoptive
placements in Oregon I will continue to believe that allowing gays and
lesbians to adopt children is a good thing that we should encourage
and support. Because we *know* children are better off in safe homes
than they are in foster care. I will believe that gays and lesbians
are entirely capable of providing safe homes until someone can
prove--and not just explain in a way that "makes sense" based on thier
untested beliefs--that being raised by gay and lesbian people damages
them.

If one assumes that a heterosexual child growing up with homosexual parents
is harmed, then one must also conclude that a homosexual child is being
harmed by growing up with heterosexual parents as their role model. Maybe
Albee would propose a swap in such cases?

[Albee Kuminova]

Post by Timothy Travis
On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:17:56 -0700, "Dave Thompson"

Post by Dave Thompson
You seem to not understand the concept "guilty before proven innocent". You
immediately assume that gays are going to abuse their adopted children with
no evidence what so ever. That is sick, buddy, just fucking sick. Have you
ever read the constitution? It's holier than thou self righteous idiots like
yourself that want restrict or punish entire categories of people because
they don't meet with your own ill-informed ignorant approval. Why don't you
just get off the gay trip, Albee? It's more than obvious that you are
completely hung up on them beyond what is normal or healthy.

It would be constructive to find and then cite some evidence about bad
effects of growing up with gay and lesbian parents. Otherwise one is
in danger of having been misled into the prideful striking of a pose
and in order to prove one's own righteousness by opposing a Great
Evil. (as those who pray on street corners).
I know too many people who have reared and been reared by gays and
lesbians, and by single parents who are doing just fine to accept what
Albee writes about children being abused if they don't have a father
and a mother.
Albee believes that it's "best" for kids to have two parents of
different sexes because that is consistent with *his* vision of Gospel
Order. He feels no need to put forth evidence to prove this, because
it just "makes sense" to people who have certain beliefs and who
reason from those untested beliefs rather than from evidence.
This can have bad results--look at where the Germans ended up
reasoning from what "made sense" to them given their racist
assumptions. History, and the contemporary world, is full of this
kind of thing--people advocating what "makes sense" in terms of their
own beliefs about what's real.

History tells us the Jews were persecuted and executed not out of a
system which makes sense but out of fear of Hitler's machine. The only
one it really made sense to was Hitler.

Post by Timothy Travis
There is no problem with this when such reasoning takes them to
purchase this or that kind of car or attend this or that kind of
church. The problem is when, such as here, this kind of reasoning
from untested assumptions threatens harm to other people.
I don't know if it's really true, or not, that kids do "better" when
they have two parents and when these parents are of different sexes,
and neither does Albee. My experience tells me it's not, but
sometimes my experience with things is not representative. I have yet
to see *any* evidence that stands the test of scrutiny for the
proposition that it is damaging *per se* for children to grow up with
either parents of the same sex or only one parent--and I have seen
plenty of evidence that it is not.
So, knowing the "benefits" of the foster care system as I do, I will
opt for leaving children with gay parents and with single parents
until someone can convince me that they are so damaged by this that
growing up with the state of Oregon as a parent, or undergoing the
trauma of separation and attempted reconnection with strangers, is a
lesser evil--if any kind of evil it is.
In fact, for the thousands of children currently awaiting adoptive
placements in Oregon I will continue to believe that allowing gays and
lesbians to adopt children is a good thing that we should encourage
and support. Because we *know* children are better off in safe homes
than they are in foster care. I will believe that gays and lesbians
are entirely capable of providing safe homes until someone can
prove--and not just explain in a way that "makes sense" based on thier
untested beliefs--that being raised by gay and lesbian people damages
them.
Timothy Travis
"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ
Jesus."
Philippians 2:5

To be frank I have seen studies which indicate that it's best for kids
to be raised in a loving mom and dad household. But that was in my
college days. Any one interested can find studies on the internet. It's
not so much what you know as knowing where the data can be found. Sorry
I don't have at my finger tips every detail I learned in my undergrad
years. But it's kind of like knowing not the exact year Columbus
discovered America but that he did it in the late 1400's. Unless one is
a 3rd grader. Then 1492 becomes VERY important. IOW, the over all
concept is what we need to be aware of. My experience in education and
corrections confirms, to me, that indeed kids raised in 2 parent
households are better off. Of course studies also show the more affluent
a family is the better chance of success a kid has. It's sort of like
the fewer roadblocks and detours one has on a trip the easier it is to
reach their destination. I'm not saying a child can't be raised by 2 men
or 2 women and turn out ok. I AM saying it's much harder on the child to
deal with that handicap and the poor kid doesn't even realize it is a
handicap at a young age. But let's be clear this isn't a "gay-bashing"
issue. It's about the kids.

Now, we can't stop dad from leaving mom and creating a one parent
household nor can we make sure all homes are affluent even though this
makes it tougher on a kid. But we can prevent kids being raised by gays
and an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. No, I do not know
where to buy a pound of cure or if it can be bought a 1/4 pound at a
time. :-)

RE: your quote......."Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ

Post by Timothy Travis
Jesus."
Philippians 2:5

I concur. And my belief is that Christ would not be a proponent for gay
adoption. Do I KNOW it or can I PROVE it. No. But I BELIEVE it just as I
believe Christ is the Son of God. And I can't PROVE that either. But I
BELIEVE it. And faith can move mountains.

[Daniel Bendiksen]

Post by Albee Kuminova
corrections confirms, to me, that indeed kids raised in 2 parent
households are better off. Of course studies also show the more affluent
a family is the better chance of success a kid has. It's sort of like
the fewer roadblocks and detours one has on a trip the easier it is to
reach their destination. I'm not saying a child can't be raised by 2 men
or 2 women and turn out ok. I AM saying it's much harder on the child to
deal with that handicap and the poor kid doesn't even realize it is a
handicap at a young age. But let's be clear this isn't a "gay-bashing"
issue. It's about the kids.

Since it's just about the kids, how about we remove the kids from all bad
situations... Or even neuter the parents so they'll stop making kids who
will have to be in bad situations. You know... neuter drunks, drug heads,
sex abusers, spouse beaters. We did this to the Indians at one time, so why
don't we do this to the *real* riff-raff?

You need not worry about neutering homosexuals, they're not interested in
the opposite sex... *joke*

Yet some homosexuals do have an interest in helping raise the future, and
what's more, since they are requesting this instead of having it by
default, they'll be trying to do it right, instead of just doing whatever
they feel they *must* do because they'll get thrown in jail if they
don't... So yes, I think homosexuals will be better parents than the vast
majority of standard parents. Even more, homosexuals tend to have higher
incomes (not sure why this is, maybe dressing better really does have an
effect on your job level)... So since kids from better off families usually
turn out better, these kids are going to turn out better!

Note: I'm siting what you said, I don't necessarily believe that rich kids
turn out better emotionally or morally, I've seen plenty of rich kids who
are very bad characters.

Post by Albee Kuminova
Now, we can't stop dad from leaving mom and creating a one parent
household nor can we make sure all homes are affluent even though this
makes it tougher on a kid. But we can prevent kids being raised by gays
and an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. No, I do not know
where to buy a pound of cure or if it can be bought a 1/4 pound at a
time. :-)

For your ounce of prevention, how about neutering all the problem subjects?
Oh, wait... That'd not slow down homosexuals... So I doubt you'll go for
that! Oh, but it would work for the bi-sexuals...

Post by Albee Kuminova
RE: your quote......."Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ

Post by Timothy Travis
Jesus."
Philippians 2:5

I concur. And my belief is that Christ would not be a proponent for gay
adoption. Do I KNOW it or can I PROVE it. No. But I BELIEVE it just as I
believe Christ is the Son of God. And I can't PROVE that either. But I
BELIEVE it. And faith can move mountains.

If you BELIEVE that, please point out some scriptures where Jesus is
speaking against gays. Till then, consider doing the educated thing and not
speaking about something upon which you are utterly ignorant.

Thank you!

[Daniel Bendiksen]

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by Daniel Bendiksen
I'm so very sorry you feel this way...
I do thank you for posting this, as it is defiantly a "call to action" for
people on both sides of the issue.

IMO, we need to see the big picture. It's not an either or situation.
Heterosexual parents can also be guilty of child
abuse...............drunkeness..........fights which include yelling and
screaming and slamming doors.............spousal abuse.........child
sexual molestation, etc. Lets's not forget this. Heterosexual parents
can conduct themselves in a manner which is child abuse or borders on

Ok, I agree with you there, it's not an either or situation. Which is why I
called for input from all sides (and since you provided a "one or the
other" type situation, I called for a polarized result ... i.e. 2 sides
responding).

You're absolutely right, same gendered parents, different gendered parents
and single parents all can be good or bad... Whatever they take the time to
be.

Post by Albee Kuminova
it. But reasonable people know it's rough to grow up. And kids need good
roll models which means a mom and a dad. Single mom families are also

Interesting... Very interesting. I remember reading articles on childrens'
health where the article points out that "mom & dad" aren't the role models
anymore, TV is. More and more kids spend more time watching TV than with
their parents. Note: When I say "with their parents", I mean actively
interacting with their parents. Thus, the real role models are the "stars"
themselves. I think (but I don't know for sure) that this is the reason we
started seeing basketball players, movie stars, etc in commercials
preaching "just say no", etc.

Post by Albee Kuminova
harmful to kids. IOW, there are many "family" situations which can
injure kids for life. IMO having two gay or lesbian parents is just one

I really don't see how having homosexual parents are, by default, a bad
childhood experience. Consider this... It is estimated that a full 10% of
the general population is homosexual. This speaks nothing of the bi-sexual
population, of which I know there are a lot of (personal experience here,
I've been hit on by married couples). So why, EXACTLY, is it a bad
childhood experience, or a "injure for life" situation to have homosexual
(or bi-sexual) parents? And, does it make a difference if you KNOW your
parents are bi-sexual, homosexual or straight? Or is it only bad if you
realize what they're doing?

** whips out some old papers on how kids are "trained" to behaviors they
don't even realize by their parents actions when the kids didn't
know/understand any of what their parents were doing **

Come on, I dare you to tell me "it's only bad if the kid knows". hehe

Post by Albee Kuminova
situation. That's not to say homosexuals can't be good, honest, caring
or loving people just like an alcoholic can be a good, honest, caring,
person and feel love for a child. But that situation injures the child
also. This isn't about gays and lesbians. It's about the children and
what kind of family is healthiest for them. In my life I have known and
worked with gays. Also I've known and worked with alcoholics. it doesn't
matter which situation is most harmful to kids. What matters is both and
other family situations are harmful to kids. In fact, in some rare
cases, it might make sense for gays to be adoptive parents of
handicapped or developmentally kids who would other wise go unadopted.
Doors should never be closed and locked to that extent. Few things in
life are either this or that.

Hmmm... So gays would only be good parents of kids who can't be helped by
the perfect parents? Ouch...

I want to point out something. I had a really hard time reading what you
wrote. Not because I wished to not "see the facts as you do", but rather
because your writing was very poor in this message for some reason. A lot
of your sentences were very jumbled and unclear. I wasn't sure what you
were referring to in many cases... This was a bit like making meaning out
of a word jumble.

If you want to converse about this, super! However, please to polish your
writing to the level you would expect to see in a newspaper, or better.

PS: I again INVITE you to bring in facts, studies, figures and research of
any kind. Either in support of your case, or in damnation of the opposing
case, or both!

[Albee Kuminova]

Post by Daniel Bendiksen

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by Daniel Bendiksen
I'm so very sorry you feel this way...
I do thank you for posting this, as it is defiantly a "call to action" for
people on both sides of the issue.

IMO, we need to see the big picture. It's not an either or situation.
Heterosexual parents can also be guilty of child
abuse...............drunkeness..........fights which include yelling and
screaming and slamming doors.............spousal abuse.........child
sexual molestation, etc. Lets's not forget this. Heterosexual parents
can conduct themselves in a manner which is child abuse or borders on

Ok, I agree with you there, it's not an either or situation. Which is why I
called for input from all sides (and since you provided a "one or the
other" type situation, I called for a polarized result ... i.e. 2 sides
responding).
You're absolutely right, same gendered parents, different gendered parents
and single parents all can be good or bad... Whatever they take the time to
be.

Post by Albee Kuminova
it. But reasonable people know it's rough to grow up. And kids need good
roll models which means a mom and a dad. Single mom families are also

Interesting... Very interesting. I remember reading articles on childrens'
health where the article points out that "mom & dad" aren't the role models
anymore, TV is. More and more kids spend more time watching TV than with
their parents. Note: When I say "with their parents", I mean actively
interacting with their parents. Thus, the real role models are the "stars"
themselves. I think (but I don't know for sure) that this is the reason we
started seeing basketball players, movie stars, etc in commercials
preaching "just say no", etc.

Post by Albee Kuminova
harmful to kids. IOW, there are many "family" situations which can
injure kids for life. IMO having two gay or lesbian parents is just one

I really don't see how having homosexual parents are, by default, a bad
childhood experience. Consider this... It is estimated that a full 10% of
the general population is homosexual. This speaks nothing of the bi-sexual
population, of which I know there are a lot of (personal experience here,
I've been hit on by married couples). So why, EXACTLY, is it a bad
childhood experience, or a "injure for life" situation to have homosexual
(or bi-sexual) parents? And, does it make a difference if you KNOW your
parents are bi-sexual, homosexual or straight? Or is it only bad if you
realize what they're doing?
** whips out some old papers on how kids are "trained" to behaviors they
don't even realize by their parents actions when the kids didn't
know/understand any of what their parents were doing **
Come on, I dare you to tell me "it's only bad if the kid knows". hehe

Post by Albee Kuminova
situation. That's not to say homosexuals can't be good, honest, caring
or loving people just like an alcoholic can be a good, honest, caring,
person and feel love for a child. But that situation injures the child
also. This isn't about gays and lesbians. It's about the children and
what kind of family is healthiest for them. In my life I have known and
worked with gays. Also I've known and worked with alcoholics. it doesn't
matter which situation is most harmful to kids. What matters is both and
other family situations are harmful to kids. In fact, in some rare
cases, it might make sense for gays to be adoptive parents of
handicapped or developmentally kids who would other wise go unadopted.
Doors should never be closed and locked to that extent. Few things in
life are either this or that.

Hmmm... So gays would only be good parents of kids who can't be helped by
the perfect parents? Ouch...
I want to point out something. I had a really hard time reading what you
wrote. Not because I wished to not "see the facts as you do", but rather
because your writing was very poor in this message for some reason. A lot
of your sentences were very jumbled and unclear. I wasn't sure what you
were referring to in many cases... This was a bit like making meaning out
of a word jumble.
If you want to converse about this, super! However, please to polish your
writing to the level you would expect to see in a newspaper, or better.

Oh! Professor of English Please don't flunk me. I sory u cud not reed or
unnerstand my wurds!!! :-) Sure blame my writing. Maybe your ability
to comprehend isn't up to.....
But that's a moot point. Listen, I don't post here on a professional
basis. If you want newspaper quality writing read a paper.

Post by Daniel Bendiksen
PS: I again INVITE you to bring in facts, studies, figures and research of
any kind. Either in support of your case, or in damnation of the opposing
case, or both!

As I said, I don't have the time to provide you with information which
you can get on the web. Try www.google.com

But since you said you were gay I suspect no studies would get past your
need to justify and give validity to your way of life. I imagine you
rate fairly high on the denial scale. We all try to defend and justify
what we know is wrong. Please don't take this as personal attack as it's
not meant to be. Every body to their own tastes said the old woman as
she kissed the cow. You have a right to swing your arms until they touch
someone else's nose. IOW, gays can live as they please until they
negatively impact another person. I am not here to judge you. Nor do I
want to. It appears we just do not and will not agree. And that's ok. We
live in America. I wish you well.

[Daniel Bendiksen]

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by Daniel Bendiksen

Post by Daniel Bendiksen
I'm so very sorry you feel this way...

If you want to converse about this, super! However, please to polish your
writing to the level you would expect to see in a newspaper, or better.

Oh! Professor of English Please don't flunk me. I sory u cud not reed or
unnerstand my wurds!!! :-) Sure blame my writing. Maybe your ability
to comprehend isn't up to.....
But that's a moot point. Listen, I don't post here on a professional
basis. If you want newspaper quality writing read a paper.

Hmmm... Very interesting. You ignore 100% of what I wrote before and simply
address something 100% not related to the topic. You seem to be incapable
of providing anything of substance, and you seem unwilling to converse in a
literate manner. That being the case, I will no be responding to you any
further. It was my mistake to believe that you would be interested in open,
honest and frank communication.

Post by Albee Kuminova

Post by Daniel Bendiksen
PS: I again INVITE you to bring in facts, studies, figures and research of
any kind. Either in support of your case, or in damnation of the opposing
case, or both!

As I said, I don't have the time to provide you with information which
you can get on the web. Try www.google.com
But since you said you were gay I suspect no studies would get past your
need to justify and give validity to your way of life. I imagine you
rate fairly high on the denial scale. We all try to defend and justify
what we know is wrong. Please don't take this as personal attack as it's
not meant to be. Every body to their own tastes said the old woman as
she kissed the cow. You have a right to swing your arms until they touch
someone else's nose. IOW, gays can live as they please until they
negatively impact another person. I am not here to judge you. Nor do I
want to. It appears we just do not and will not agree. And that's ok. We
live in America. I wish you well.

PS: Here, let me put in quotes all that Jesus said about gays... "..." Yes,
that's right, he said nothing. And he lived in a time when Rome was rife
with gays. Now, please prove me wrong by providing facts, direct quotes
(including where they came from), etc. If you refuse to do this, then
you're just flapping your gums and not worth the seed your daddy spent in
creating you.

[Colin Caulkins]

I remember reading articles on childrens' health where the article
points out that "mom & dad" aren't the role models anymore, TV is.

Frightening, very frightening.

Consider this... It is estimated that a full 10% of the general
population is homosexual.

That estimate comes from the Kinsey study which was done in the 1940's.
The number is inflated because of the difficulties of persuading a truly
random sample of the population to talk with strangers about their sexual
habits. This forced the question-takers to seek answers
disproportionately from rooming houses and other sources outside the
mainstream. Better, more recent studies suggest homosexuals are more like
2-5% of the population.

Colin

[Daniel Bendiksen]

Post by Colin Caulkins

I remember reading articles on childrens' health where the article
points out that "mom & dad" aren't the role models anymore, TV is.

Frightening, very frightening.

Isn't it though? I was more shocked with that after I opened my eyes and
looked for evidence, and spotted it in mass.

Post by Colin Caulkins

Consider this... It is estimated that a full 10% of the general
population is homosexual.

That estimate comes from the Kinsey study which was done in the 1940's.

...

Post by Colin Caulkins
mainstream. Better, more recent studies suggest homosexuals are more like
2-5% of the population.

Oh, good to know! Thanks for the feedback!

Was nice to hear from someone who actually was constructive! :)

[unknown]

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:50:40 -0700, Daniel Bendiksen

Post by Daniel Bendiksen
I'm so very sorry you feel this way...
I do thank you for posting this, as it is defiantly a "call to action" for
people on both sides of the issue.
People who agree with this should write to the editor of Statesman Journal.
People who disagree with this should write to the editor of the Statesman
Journal.
In your letter to them, please do be concise, exacting and detailed. Just
wildly writing out your emotional response isn't going to sway many (if
any) people, so do site studies, facts and personal experience.
You might look for things that show how terrible children of homosexuals
turn out. I'd also suggest looking for things that show how kids of
homosexuals are worse off than kids of straight parents (please don't point
out the "injustice" of the legal system where homosexuals can't be married
in the eyes of the govn't, can't be listed with medical authority, etc,
these points will only show that the system is biased against homosexuals,
which is not your point here).
You might look for things that show how terrible kids of perfect parents
can be, how well adjusted kids of homosexuals have been, point out "which
is worse" cases like "with homosexual parents" vs "with a drunk abusive
parent", or "with homosexual parents" vs "with parents who abused their
kids sexually".
Ok, nuff said. I'll respond to the article below...

Post by Albee Kuminova
http://news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=85798
Growing up with gay parents will leave children inadequate
August 28, 2004
I believe that if children are brought up in gay homes, it will leave
the children confused and scared. Also, with male homosexual parents, it
will give male children a false sense of what a man is supposed to be.

You believe? Could you please dig up a couple findings or personal examples
you've observed? (I know there's a lot of these around, so it shouldn't be
to difficult)

Well how about all the psycho-babble have used in the past for race
based promotions..to provide role models for children. You think the
pscho-babble works both ways....or the presumptive truth or role
models only applicable to further the causes of the weirdo lefties?

How about if we say "I think..." or in "My opinion..." I realize these
are concepts that are likely alien to people who have chosen to forgo
using their minds.

Post by Daniel Bendiksen

Post by Albee Kuminova
I believe that homosexuals are a spirit and if children are brought up
around that spirit, it will rub off on them. I feel that there are
already many problems children have to face in the world and allowing
them to be brought up in a homosexual house is another problem that we
are adding to.

A spirit? I'm not sure I understand you here... Are you trying to say that
God made them that way? Yet, you say they can "rub off" on the kids, so
that makes it sound like something infectious... Which is it? Disease or
divine intent?

Post by Albee Kuminova
Children have no voice — no opinion to what, where and how they want to
be raised. As a man and a father, I feel it is my obligation to voice my
feelings and opinion on this subject.

Feelings & opinions are a great start. Please do follow up with facts, case
studies & examples.

Post by Albee Kuminova
I strongly feel that children need a stable and secure foundation to be
raised on, and living in a house with gay parents just won’t help them
become all they should be when they become adults.

I agree that kids need a stable environment to grow up in. I don't agree
that straight parents provide that by default. I personally know of
examples of sexual abuse by straight parents, physical abuse by drunk/high
parents and mental abuse by parents who had low self-esteem.
I think what kids really need is a stable, loving & supportative
environment to grow up in. Then they will be empowered to do as they wish.

Post by Albee Kuminova
— Ivan McCrae, Keizer

Thank you for writing, Ivan.

Post by Albee Kuminova
The above letter writer to the editor of the Salem Statesman Journal has
an interesting opinion. It's not too far of a jump to conclude that
adoption by same sex couples or kids being raised by same sex couples is
a child abuse.
I am sure the politically correct liberal will attack me for posting
this. But I maintain that it is child abuse. Pure and simple. The letter
writer is on target.

Until you can address the gross deficiencies of the writing of the above
letter, I feel no need to address you directly except in the context of
saying "come up with facts and figures, then we'll talk lucidly about
this".

[Daniel Bendiksen]

Post by unknown
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:50:40 -0700, Daniel Bendiksen

Post by Daniel Bendiksen
I'm so very sorry you feel this way...
Ok, nuff said. I'll respond to the article below...

Post by Albee Kuminova
http://news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=85798
Growing up with gay parents will leave children inadequate

You believe? Could you please dig up a couple findings or personal examples
you've observed? (I know there's a lot of these around, so it shouldn't be
to difficult)

Well how about all the psycho-babble have used in the past for race
based promotions..to provide role models for children. You think the
pscho-babble works both ways....or the presumptive truth or role
models only applicable to further the causes of the weirdo lefties?

Good point. Mind you, those with a brain tend to see right through that
stuff... But a very good point never-the-less... Even those with brains can
be brainwashed if it's repeated often enough (notice how many smokers there
are? Everyone knows it's unhealthy, so why do the do it? ... Wait, maybe
that's not brainwashing...)

Post by unknown
How about if we say "I think..." or in "My opinion..." I realize these
are concepts that are likely alien to people who have chosen to forgo
using their minds.

Okay, you've got me there... LOL